Every Steve Coleman performance is highly creative, energetic, explosive, intuitive, intelligent and knowledgeable and this one was no exception. The band interpreted mostly compositions from the new recording, although, as Coleman indicates below (several hours before the concert), they also played new versions of older compositions. I had Mr. Coleman autograph my copy of the 1995 album Curves Of Life at the end of our interview and surprisingly enough, most of the older compositions played in the two sets were from that very record (such as: The Streets, Drop Kick and I'm Burnin' Up (Fire Theme)). These videos (made by an audience member) are of poor sound quality, however they give an idea of the performance.I would say that Steve Coleman, while playing compositions based on the human body’s functional arrhythmias, demonstrated with his band that they constitute the individually rewarded parts of an "ensemble" that goes beyond its mere functions. In other words, each band member could have represented a vital organ in order to form together, by their shared experience, a body that transcends its powerful vitality by spontaneously creating something novel on every occasion.
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The Interview
Hayri Gökşin
Özkoray: About your last
album, I would like to ask if the human body in general or some of its vital
organs in particular tend to swing in a natural way? If not, what exactly is the
procedure that holds together these functional
arrhythmias?
Steve
Coleman: “Swing” is not the
word I would use. I would use the word “groove” instead. But
yeah, sure, the human body grooves. The organs have a certain way
they work together and yeah, to me, all life has a groove. You know,
that’s the best way I can look at it. It starts with the heartbeat,
this is like the engine of the body, because when the heart stops,
it’s finished [laughs]. Everything has a groove, a natural way that
works together, or should.
HGÖ: As
a human being yourself, are you able to distance yourself enough from
these bodily functions in order to translate them into an art form?
SC:
Yeah, I try. Like everybody else in history, you do it according to
your vision. Each person has a different vision, but yes, that’s
the subject of the recording. Many of the compositions we will play
tonight are from this recording.
HGÖ:
So, will you play old compositions as well?
SC:
Yeah, we do many things. We do compositions from the new record, we
can do some form of an older composition (it never is the exact same
form). We can also do compositions we never did before. Spontaneous.
Today.
HGÖ:
That’s precisely what I would like to ask you about! Spontaneous
composition.
SC:
Are you a musician?
HGÖ:
Only as an amateur. I study the trumpet with a friend of Jonathan
Finlayson’s from Oakland [the multi-instrumentalist and trumpeter
extraordinaire Josiah Woodson]. I also do some Cecil Taylor stuff on
the piano, but that isn’t very serious.
SC: But Cecil Taylor is serious! [mutual laughter]
HGÖ:
Of course! Let’s forget about me. What exactly goes on the
bandstand when you refer to that phenomenon of spontaneous
composition? I have read you saying “the public doesn’t
understand that we are composing on the stage”. According to their
perception, an already written material is being played, although
there is only a spontaneous creation. Do you intervene in a specific
way as the spontaneous composer, or is it more of a collaboration
that builds on your group interaction and interplay? Is there some
kind of Butch Morris thing going on?
SC:
It could be all of those things. It’s spontaneous, we never know
what it is going to be. If we knew, it wouldn’t be spontaneous
[mutual laughter]. We develop it as we play. It’s spontaneous, so
it can happen anyway, from one person, from two people... A mistake
sometimes can happen from any direction. It’s too big to say how.
But, the first thing is that the musicians must have the skill, so
that they can do something spontaneous. That takes preparation, you
know, the skill takes a lot of preparation. And in fact, we all are
still learning. The big thing is the feeling, the ability to feel and
hear rhythms and to immediately execute them.
HGÖ:
And all the harmonic and rhythmic implications of what is being done
by the other group members...
SC:
Sure, but if you can’t play the melodies, then the other things
don’t matter [laughs]. I mean, if you can’t play the rhythms and
the melodies, the figures, all the knowledge you have doesn’t
matter. Of course, everything else helps, but also knowing the
tradition helps. What all the great musicians before us have done helps us. There is a body of knowledge.
HGÖ:
Maybe you are past the research phase now, but I want to ask which
musical tradition you would like to explore further?
SC: I
am looking at a lot of different things, but it’s not one
particular tradition. The tradition I’m most involved in is what is
coming from my culture. I don’t look at it as “black music”, I
look at it as whatever my culture is. Culture is a group of people in
a particular place, at a particular time that are relating in some
way. I am from the south side of Chicago and my culture grows from
there. Nobody here is from Chicago but me. Although we all are
connected by culture, but it is not a color thing. I also had white
musicians in my group before. It is more of an understanding.
Communication, understanding, connection, having some common
experience. That’s the best way I can put it.
HGÖ:
You have brought up a generation of brilliant musicians like Ravi
Coltrane, Vijay Iyer, Jonathan Finlayson, Miles Okazaki and many
others. Altoists like Rudresh Mahanthappa or Steve Lehman aren’t
just following your musical vision, but they also have elements of
your original sound in their playing. My question is, how would one be able to adopt an M-Base kind of approach without studying
directly with you, say half a century from now?
SC:
That’s a difficult question to answer. Each person is different.
Jonathan didn’t learn the same way as Sean [Rickman] or Anthony
[Tidd]. Each one of them approaches the music in a completely
different and personal way.
HGÖ:
But how can someone approach the music of Steve Coleman
without studying directly with you?
SC:
They just do what they do. You see this guy, Jean-Paul
Bourelly? [who also was in the club during the rehearsal]
HGÖ:
The guitar player?
SC:
Yes. We grew up together, he lives right around the corner from my
family. You know, just two streets over. He is four years younger
than me, but we are from the same generation. When he came to New
York, he moved in with me. We have a big connection. We don’t play
in the same band now, I haven’t played with him in years. But we
have a common experience, it’s this experience that you are hearing
in the music. It is music, but the source is not musical. The source
is the experience and the people. All these people are connected by
experience and culture. That is more important than the music. Of
course, they have to be able to play. For me, this experience thing
is just as important. If Jean-Paul comes on the stage and plays with
us, he even doesn’t have to know the music. Because he will know
the vibe, the vibration of the music. That’s even more important
than a specific music. He can make something, instantly. Jean-Paul and Sean
never played together, but they sure can connect immediately. This
common cultural experience is deep, it’s beyond notes and rhythms.
HGÖ:
So, what was the influence of your experience
in the bands of Thad Jones, Cecil Taylor or Dave Holland on your
composing and arranging, and musicianship in general?
SC: Yeah,
but what do you want to know? It’s a big question, you ask me about
three people [laughs].
HGÖ:
Alright, let’s go with Thad Jones.
SC: Okay.
I was just learning, he was a much older guy than me. I was just
trying to find out about the tradition and trying to see different
details in the music and things like that.
HGÖ:
Then, with Dave Holland, it was more of a mutual relationship?
SC:
Because we are closer in age, it’s an age thing. Dave is 10 years
older than me. Thad Jones is 32 years older than me. It’s a really
big difference. Thad Jones is from the generation of Charlie Parker,
John Coltrane and those guys. This is a big difference than where
Dave Holland is. Dave Holland is closer to the generation of Michael
Brecker, Dave Liebman and all those guys. It’s a completely
different generation. So, I started off by learning with the guys of
Charlie Parker’s generation: Sonny Stitt, Von Freeman, Sam Rivers,
Thad Jones, all these guys were born in the 1920s. That was my first
learning experience. And that’s at the foundation of what I do. By
the time I met Dave Holland, I was more professional, I knew more. We
have exchanged, I showed Dave some things even if he’s older. With
Thad Jones, it was not an exchange at all, I was just learning. It
was more of a teacher-mentor situation.
HGÖ:
In retrospect, I can hear how Dave Holland was inspired by your
rhythmic knowledge, it’s obvious in his compositions of the 1990s
and 2000s [whereas Steve Coleman was in his band in the 1980s].
SC: That’s
because he comes from England, you know? The people who created this
music are from the United States. It has some things from Europe and
Asia, but the base of it is African-American. So, of course, Dave was
still learning things. He knew things from the older generation, from
Miles Davis and people like that [at this point, Steve Coleman turned
to Jonathan Finlayson and told him to meet his “main cat”
Jean-Paul Bourelly].
HGÖ:
Having played with Anthony Braxton before, did Dave Holland know what
he wanted from an alto player?
SC:
I don’t know, you have to ask Dave. He has a long relationship with
Braxton from the early 1970s and I don’t know its details. I wasn’t
there at the time, I was still too young.
HGÖ:
Were you excited about playing with the bassist who accompanied
Braxton?
SC:
I knew Dave through Sam Rivers. I learned about Braxton later. I
played in Sam Rivers’ band where Dave was playing the bass. That
was my first connection with Dave Holland. Of course, I knew about
him playing with Miles and everything, but I really knew about him
personally through Sam Rivers. The thing that connected us was Sam
Rivers, not really Anthony Braxton. You know, it was the Sam Rivers
Big Band. Sam Rivers was a mentor for me and he was a mentor for Dave
too.
HGÖ:
Last question. As someone heavily influenced by Charlie Parker, where
do you place Cannonball Adderley and Sonny Stitt in the alto
tradition? How far did they take the Bird influence?
SC: They
are disciples of Charlie Parker, they come after him, they are close
in age. Sonny Stitt is only four years younger than Charlie Parker. They
took the influence in a personal direction. I don’t think of them
as changing it like Coltrane did. Lou Donaldson, Sonny Stitt, Charles
McPherson, all these guys play in the style of Charlie Parker, but in
their own way. Cannonball was a little bit further, but still, I hear
him as being primarily influenced by Charlie Parker. Coltrane was
initially influenced by Charlie Parker, but he went further,
obviously. I also hear Sonny Rollins as being influenced by Charlie
Parker, but also a guy who went further. They are all disciples,
well, I am a disciple too. I am further away in time, so naturally,
we are doing things very differently. If Charlie Parker walked in and
played with us right now, without having heard all the changes in the
music, he would be kind of lost. Still, I think that Charlie Parker is
my biggest influence.
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